Speed and MPEG4 AVC

Sagittaire · 16th January 2006, 12:02

Everyone say "MPEG4 AVC ... it's slow" but ...

For the same speed
MPEG4 AVC in fast mode is by far better for metric than MPEG4 ASP with RDO actived.

For Same Quality
MPEG4 ASP in highest quality mode (lowest speed) is unable to make the same quality than MPEG4 AVC in fastest mode (highest speed)

berrinam · 16th January 2006, 12:11

Interesting graph. Also interesting to note that x264 is completely above-right of Ateme, signalling that, (by PSNR) for any quality level, x264 is faster, and likewise, for any speed level, x264 is better quality.

Secondly, why are you using OPSNR? Don't you say that SSIM is much better?

EDIT: Why use JPEG? It's got lots of ringing.

bond · 16th January 2006, 12:19

very interesting results! thx a lot

about the encodes, i see you have done 4 encodes with every codec (except ateme), can you post the used settings for those (if you still know them)?

Sagittaire · 16th January 2006, 12:21

simply little and partial result : I will make 6 graph.

- Low Quality, medium quality and High Quality Encoding
- OPSNR and SSIM

But actually in my test x264 (MP and HP) is always little better than Ateme (MP and HP) in highest quality mode.

Actualy x264 HP is certainely the best codec in the world for metric test

Sagittaire · 16th January 2006, 12:50

Quote:

about the encodes, i see you have done 4 encodes with every codec (except ateme), can you post the used settings for those (if you still know them)?

well not choice with WMV9, VP7 and DivX6 : there are simple and limited speed profil.

With XviD I test that:
H263, bframe 2/1.50/0.00, no QPel, no GMC, no AQ
- ME vey low, VHQ0 -> highest speed
- ME low, VHQ0
- ME medium, VHQ0
- ME High, VHQ0
- ME Ultra High, VHQ0
- ME Ultra High, VHQ1
- ME Ultra High, VHQ1, trelli
- ME Ultra High, VHQ3, trelli
- ME Ultra High, VHQ1, trelli, chroma me
- ME Ultra High, VHQ4, trelli, chroma me, brdo -> highest quality

and I choose the best encoding for best possible fps=F(metric) zone limit.

With x264 I test that:

x264.exe --bframe 2 --ref 1 --filter 0:0 --bitrate 1400 --pass 2 --stats "x264_stat.log" --qcomp 0.75 --ipratio 1.25 --pbratio 1.33 --analyse "none" --8x8dct --weightb --me "dia" --subme 1 --no-chroma-me --progress --no-psnr -o x264HP_KingKong_400p_Speed1.mp4 Speed.avs

x264.exe --bframe 2 --ref 1 --filter 0:0 --bitrate 1400 --pass 2 --stats "x264_stat.log" --qcomp 0.75 --ipratio 1.25 --pbratio 1.33 --analyse "i8x8,p8x8,b8x8" --8x8dct --weightb --me "dia" --subme 2 --no-chroma-me --progress --no-psnr -o x264HP_KingKong_400p_Speed2.mp4 Speed.avs

x264.exe --bframe 2 --ref 1 --filter 0:0 --bitrate 1400 --pass 2 --stats "x264_stat.log" --qcomp 0.75 --ipratio 1.25 --pbratio 1.33 --analyse "all" --8x8dct --weightb --me "dia" --subme 6 --no-chroma-me --trellis 1 --progress --no-psnr -o x264HP_KingKong_400p_Speed5.mp4 Speed.avs

x264.exe --bframe 2 --bime --b-rdo --ref 5 --mixed-refs --filter 0:0 --bitrate 1400 --pass 2 --stats "x264_stat.log" --qcomp 0.75 --ipratio 1.25 --pbratio 1.33 --analyse "all" --8x8dct --weightb --me "dia" --subme 6 --trellis 1 --progress --no-psnr -o x264HP_KingKong_400p_Speed6.mp4 Speed.avs

With Ateme I test that:

encavc.exe -i Speed.avs -o NDAVCHP_KingKong_400p_Speed1.mp4 -qual fastest -setef xf8x8 -rcmode 2nd -log 1pass.log -br 1400000 -deblock 0 -ref 1 -bref 1

encavc.exe -i Speed.avs -o NDAVCHP_KingKong_400p_Speed2.mp4 -qual fast -setef xf8x8 -rcmode 2nd -log 1pass.log -br 1400000 -deblock 0 -ref 1 -bref 1

encavc.exe -i Speed.avs -o NDAVCHP_KingKong_400p_Speed3.mp4 -qual normal -setef xf8x8 -rcmode 2nd -log 1pass.log -br 1400000 -deblock 0 -ref 1 -bref 1

encavc.exe -i Speed.avs -o NDAVCHP_KingKong_400p_Speed4.mp4 -qual good -setef xf8x8 -rcmode 2nd -log 1pass.log -br 1400000 -deblock 0 -ref 1 -bref 1

encavc.exe -i Speed.avs -o NDAVCHP_KingKong_400p_Speed5.mp4 -qual best -setef xf8x8 -psy 1 -rcmode 2nd -log 1pass.log -br 1400000 -deblock 0 -ref 1 -bref 1

encavc.exe -i Speed.avs -o NDAVCHP_KingKong_400p_Speed6.mp4 -qual extra -setef xf8x8 -enhchrp -psy 1 -rcmode 2nd -log 1pass.log -br 1400000 -deblock 0 -ref 5 -bref 1

lazyn00b · 16th January 2006, 17:28

Hello Sagittaire, and thank you for your tests of these codecs.

I've noticed lately that you use custom values for qcomp, ipratio, and pbratio for x264 encoding. Would you mind explaining why you change these from the defaults? I was wondering if these values give you better results on PSNR, SSIM, etc.

uray · 16th January 2006, 18:24

where is x264 point located for same settings with :
--bframe 4 --b-rdo --bime --trellis 2 --me "umh" --subme 7 --no-fast-pskip --ref 8 --mixed-refs

because I always use this for every encode...

btw thanks for the graph, very nice!

Mutant_Fruit · 16th January 2006, 18:39

I noticed you used --ref 1 for x264 and ateme. Wouldn't you get better quality per filesize if you used --ref 4 or better, and used multiple b-frames/bpyrimid? Or is that bad for metrics?

Sagittaire · 16th January 2006, 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by uray

where is x264 point located for same settings with :
--bframe 4 --b-rdo --bime --trellis 2 --me "umh" --subme 7 --no-fast-pskip --ref 8 --mixed-refs

because I always use this for every encode...

btw thanks for the graph, very nice!

IMO it's useless for meduim quality (usual 100-120 min DVD back-up) and high quality encoding ...

very low speed and not very higher quality ...

Sagittaire · 16th January 2006, 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mutant_Fruit

I noticed you used --ref 1 for x264 and ateme. Wouldn't you get better quality per filesize if you used --ref 4 or better, and used multiple b-frames/bpyrimid? Or is that bad for metrics?

I use best possible quality/speed setting ... I think ... but perhaps possible to find better fps = F (OPSNR) limitation zone.

Mutant_Fruit · 16th January 2006, 20:44

I think using --ref 3 or --ref 4 will provide a significant (ish) boost in PSNR supposedly worth the speedloss. After --ref 5 or so, the gains become less and less except maybe for anime.

akupenguin · 16th January 2006, 21:56

@Sagittaire
use "--me hex" for everything except the fastest.
remove "--analyse all" from #3
"--analyse i8x8,i4x4,p8x8" is both better and faster than "--analyse i8x8,p8x8,b8x8"

Sagittaire · 17th January 2006, 00:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by akupenguin

@Sagittaire
use "--me hex" for everything except the fastest.
remove "--analyse all" from #3
"--analyse i8x8,i4x4,p8x8" is both better and faster than "--analyse i8x8,p8x8,b8x8"

1) thank you for this fabulous work on the x264

2) thank you for new setting ... I will try that.

uray · 17th January 2006, 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagittaire

IMO it's useless for meduim quality (usual 100-120 min DVD back-up) and high quality encoding ...

very low speed and not very higher quality ...

ic that..
so... can't wait for lowbitrate comparison... hehehe...

usually I encoded DVD to 256MB using 380-400Kb/s.

rozemab · 17th January 2006, 16:43

Is Ateme the same encoder as Nero Digital Pro 2 (in your tests)?

Doom9 · 17th January 2006, 17:04

Quote:

Is Ateme the same encoder as Nero Digital Pro 2 (in your tests)?

No.. it's a non publicly available AVC high profile encoder currently in beta test. And no, they don't take in testers at this point.

puffpio · 17th January 2006, 23:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by uray

ic that..
so... can't wait for lowbitrate comparison... hehehe...

usually I encoded DVD to 256MB using 380-400Kb/s.

wow! at what resolution?

uray · 18th January 2006, 07:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by puffpio

wow! at what resolution?

640x352

Sagittaire · 28th January 2006, 06:42

Update:
- Elecard AVC High Profil encoder 23/01/2006 (beta testing version)
- DivX 6.1.1 encoder
- Better Target bitrate for VP7 (better result)
- akupenguin setting for x264

I test only speed in second pass (real encoding pass) :
- All codec can use first turbo pass
- be carefull : Ateme can use high turbo pass in real encoding situation (more than 10000 frames) but if second pass is high quality pass (slow encoding) then average speed for 1st + 2nd will not really change for all codec

conclusion :
- Elecard codec is very good AVC codec too
- MPEG4 AVC codec are really better than MPEG4 ASP codec for speed and quality
- MPEG4 AVC seem to have difficulty to progress with high speed now. Certainely that metric quality improvement become very difficult for all AVC developper. IMO it's certainely the time for x264 to choose HVS tuning way with adaptative quantisation for example ...

IgorC · 28th January 2006, 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagittaire

Update:
- MPEG4 AVC seem to have difficulty to progress with high speed now. Certainely that metric quality improvement become very difficult for all AVC developper. IMO it's certainely the time for x264 to choose HVS tuning way with adaptative quantisation for example ...

Informative test.

That is true. For ssim tests Ateme+noAQ and x264 are close. But Ateme+Aq (psy2) is best imho result. Not always for OPSNR but mostly for SSIM.

16th January 2006, 12:02	#1 \| Link
Sagittaire Testeur de codecs Join Date: May 2003 Location: France Posts: 2,484	Speed and MPEG4 AVC Everyone say "MPEG4 AVC ... it's slow" but ... For the same speed MPEG4 AVC in fast mode is by far better for metric than MPEG4 ASP with RDO actived. For Same Quality MPEG4 ASP in highest quality mode (lowest speed) is unable to make the same quality than MPEG4 AVC in fastest mode (highest speed) __________________ Le Sagittaire ... ;-) 1- Ateme AVC or x264 2- VP7 or RV10 only for anime 3- XviD, DivX or WMV9 Last edited by Sagittaire; 21st February 2006 at 19:50.

16th January 2006, 12:11	#2 \| Link
berrinam Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,740	Interesting graph. Also interesting to note that x264 is completely above-right of Ateme, signalling that, (by PSNR) for any quality level, x264 is faster, and likewise, for any speed level, x264 is better quality. Secondly, why are you using OPSNR? Don't you say that SSIM is much better? EDIT: Why use JPEG? It's got lots of ringing. Last edited by berrinam; 16th January 2006 at 12:20.

16th January 2006, 12:19	#3 \| Link
bond Registered User Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 9,770	very interesting results! thx a lot about the encodes, i see you have done 4 encodes with every codec (except ateme), can you post the used settings for those (if you still know them)? __________________ Between the weak and the strong one it is the freedom which oppresses and the law that liberates (Jean Jacques Rousseau) I know, that I know nothing (Socrates) MPEG-4 ASP FAQ \| AVC/H.264 FAQ \| AAC FAQ \| MP4 FAQ \| MP4Menu stores DVD Menus in MP4 (guide) Ogg Theora \| Ogg Vorbis use WM9 today and get Micro$oft controlling the A/V market tomorrow for free

16th January 2006, 12:21	#4 \| Link
Sagittaire Testeur de codecs Join Date: May 2003 Location: France Posts: 2,484	simply little and partial result : I will make 6 graph. - Low Quality, medium quality and High Quality Encoding - OPSNR and SSIM But actually in my test x264 (MP and HP) is always little better than Ateme (MP and HP) in highest quality mode. Actualy x264 HP is certainely the best codec in the world for metric test __________________ Le Sagittaire ... ;-) 1- Ateme AVC or x264 2- VP7 or RV10 only for anime 3- XviD, DivX or WMV9

16th January 2006, 18:24	#7 \| Link
uray Registered User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: indonesia Posts: 35	where is x264 point located for same settings with : --bframe 4 --b-rdo --bime --trellis 2 --me "umh" --subme 7 --no-fast-pskip --ref 8 --mixed-refs because I always use this for every encode... btw thanks for the graph, very nice! __________________ yesterday is the day before

16th January 2006, 17:28	#6 \| Link
lazyn00b Registered User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA Posts: 152	Hello Sagittaire, and thank you for your tests of these codecs. I've noticed lately that you use custom values for qcomp, ipratio, and pbratio for x264 encoding. Would you mind explaining why you change these from the defaults? I was wondering if these values give you better results on PSNR, SSIM, etc.

16th January 2006, 18:39	#8 \| Link
Mutant_Fruit Registered User Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 287	I noticed you used --ref 1 for x264 and ateme. Wouldn't you get better quality per filesize if you used --ref 4 or better, and used multiple b-frames/bpyrimid? Or is that bad for metrics? __________________ Nothing to see here...

16th January 2006, 20:44	#11 \| Link
Mutant_Fruit Registered User Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 287	I think using --ref 3 or --ref 4 will provide a significant (ish) boost in PSNR supposedly worth the speedloss. After --ref 5 or so, the gains become less and less except maybe for anime. __________________ Nothing to see here...

16th January 2006, 21:56	#12 \| Link
akupenguin x264 developer Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 2,392	@Sagittaire use "--me hex" for everything except the fastest. remove "--analyse all" from #3 "--analyse i8x8,i4x4,p8x8" is both better and faster than "--analyse i8x8,p8x8,b8x8"

17th January 2006, 16:43	#15 \| Link
rozemab Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Cornfields of Indiana Posts: 40	Is Ateme the same encoder as Nero Digital Pro 2 (in your tests)? __________________ If they build a taller wall, you simply build a taller ladder.

28th January 2006, 06:42	#19 \| Link
Sagittaire Testeur de codecs Join Date: May 2003 Location: France Posts: 2,484	Update: - Elecard AVC High Profil encoder 23/01/2006 (beta testing version) - DivX 6.1.1 encoder - Better Target bitrate for VP7 (better result) - akupenguin setting for x264 I test only speed in second pass (real encoding pass) : - All codec can use first turbo pass - be carefull : Ateme can use high turbo pass in real encoding situation (more than 10000 frames) but if second pass is high quality pass (slow encoding) then average speed for 1st + 2nd will not really change for all codec conclusion : - Elecard codec is very good AVC codec too - MPEG4 AVC codec are really better than MPEG4 ASP codec for speed and quality - MPEG4 AVC seem to have difficulty to progress with high speed now. Certainely that metric quality improvement become very difficult for all AVC developper. IMO it's certainely the time for x264 to choose HVS tuning way with adaptative quantisation for example ... __________________ Le Sagittaire ... ;-) 1- Ateme AVC or x264 2- VP7 or RV10 only for anime 3- XviD, DivX or WMV9 Last edited by Sagittaire; 28th January 2006 at 06:47.